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I just did a oriat>yuan>mongol empire playthrough recently and I would recommend aristocratic and religious as your first two idea groups as aristocratic really helps hordes where they need it, and religious is needed to convert land as you won't want a syncretic faith so you get 100% cav ratio and you will want it for converting cultures cheaper in the chinese farmlands so you can cheaply dev your primary culture for more banners later on and get institutions. for a 3rd idea group you might want to consider going expansion just for the first colonist idea so you can block russia from colonizing siberia so you can colonize it yourself for more primary culture later on. After blocking russia you can drop the idea group as something like economic or administrative might be more useful at this time, the price of 360 adm to block russia is worth it as it will cost more to conquer later on then you will get from razing the land and then it won't be your culture. I would chose to switch to economic over administrative since it will really help your economy and you are getting so many monarch points from razing china that reducing the dev cost would pay off a lot, and after forming yuan and getting their core cost reduction, the cost to core after razing is not much, and is zero, if not profitable in adm point once you get some admin efficiency from absolutism so administrative isnt necessary. Eventually you will want to get expansion again so you can get siberia but that isnt necessary until like your 5th or 6th idea, this will mean you will be very admin type ideas heavy so you will want to try for admin point rulers early on to keep up with ideas, tech, and coring. If you are in multiplayer you will probably want to go for 4 military idea groups, I would recommend besides aristocratic, to get quality to stack cav combat ability, offensive for generals and discipline, but the last one is a toss up between defensive or quantity, I would go defensive if you can achieve mongol empire so you have faster reinforcements for your banners, and quantity if you can't achieve it. You will have room for one more idea group and it is more your choice, espionage for a more cav combat ability policy, trade to make more money from the silk road across asia, administrative/economic whatever you didnt take, innovative is generally good, influence for vassals if you play that way, humanist for even easier conquering. You could also drop expansion once you are done colonizing siberia but it is pretty good for large empires with many territories.
Economic is such a waste of points
early admin you need for cores, diplo you need to dev a gold mine or institution/reduce WE/accept cultures, but you'll have an excess of mil. Take aristo first. Aristo will not only make your cav better but it will make it and mil tech cheaper, it will also fix your shitty manpower and autonomy and it gives an extra diplomat as well as a siege pip. Aristo is the best idea group for hordes by far as it buffs all of the things you need all at once. After that either go admin or humanist, depending on what nation you are and how early your ccr national idea comes as all starting horde nations have it, but make sure to take both eventually.
Economic buffs only your economy, and not by much. As you said, your own taxes and production are nearly irrelevant early game. It also costs valuable admin mana.
Quality? Why waste MP on Naval advances if you're a Horde? Quantity IS Horde…cheaper units, land modifiers…it's economical and the manpower buffs allow you to keep rolling through conquests. If you take it first, then you get the advantage early over your neighbours, and you're not splitting your Admin between Tech'ing up and Idea. Once you've actually rolled over some territory then you have enough of it to be worth taxing, otherwise, you're spending MP to get minimal amounts of gold that you already have early game through the availability of easily reached conquests. It's not until after your initial wars that you have to start plotting out who to attack next that the economic troubles start, and typically you've already blasted through your Quantity Idea so have the muscle to take on the more difficult foes who have the territory you would tax. Not intending to be unjustifiably contradictory, but there is a general logic behind what I'm proposing that applies to most Horde starts…but…we all have different styles!
you ramble toooooo much
My favorite horde is Zhaporozhie, because it's a Christians cossack horde
Literally the worst idea groups possible for a Horde. Even Espionage is a better advice. Congratulations.
Humanist suits hordes waaaaaaay better than religious because of the significant missionary maintenance cost that comes with converting provinces. Coupled with the fact that Deus Vult basically becomes unnecessary because of your already powerful horde CBs, an otherwise great idea group becomes less than ideal. You just can't say no to passive tolerance, reduced revolt risk, improved relations (coalitions go bye bye) AND -10 years of separatism. It's just too good as a horde.
Oh yes
IAM ENGAGING
Bit old, but as Oirat you can effectively make one cav unit cost only 5 ducats, meaning their maintenance is 0.10 ducats instead of 0.5 (Tengri -20%, Oirat ideas -10%, Aristocratic -10%, Economic+Aristo -10%, Quantity -10% and -20% i forget what it was tho.
200 cavalry will cost 20 ducats maintenance. 1000 cav 100 ducats.
So maybe I'm just a dumb noob, but how do I fight Muscovy as Great Horde at start?
if you manage to form the mongol empire obviously you know how to deal with economics, great video btw, helpful af
I just found your channel and might be a little bit late on that one. But thats my strat:
Best Horde: Jianzhou. you start with feudalism and can murder ming within the first 10 years and you have better Missions than Oirat and you can use OP Banners.
Ideas:
1. Aristocratic
2. Humanist
3. Trade
4. Admin
then whatever you want. Good pics are: Offensive, Espionage! <- nice Policy with Aristocratic!! Diplo, Quant/ Qual
I usually increase the auonomy everywhere to avoid rebellions and aristocratic helps with a Monthly autonomy reduction. I Need that, because hordes dont have the autonomy modifiers in their Government which monarchies have.
Bukhara is op
The best horde is horde Poland
Sarig Yogir, best horde.
Joking aside in 1444 its Oirat.
Got Mongolian empire in 1550 with humanist ideas which I never take.
It's definitely possible to play a horde and not go bankrupt 3-4 times during a playthrough, but why would you? Bankruptcy is incredibly OP.
You should have stated that debasing is preferable to loans when it comes to hordes. The high autonomy makes debasing almost a net money maker especially early. Aristocratic is made for horde and stacks the best with horde ideas. The monthly autonomy modifier, manpower recoverery, and cav CA and cost is really good for it. Then go quality second mil group for Uber cav swarms.
Congrats on the wc though it justifies yourself in the video though even though many will think your idea group choices are unorthodox. Aristocratic, admin/Humanist, influence is what 90% of people will say.
Aristocratic ideas first idea almost every time since you will be good on mil tech relatively. If not go admin first. Depends on what you are comfortable with. Influence is a lot better way then trade. Trade maybe as a 2nd Diplo group but it's generally not desirable.
Best horde at start probably Manchu or Oirat since they are the easiest after Manchu patch .Id say great horde but that's more difficult imo since Muscovy and Ottomans can be a pain at times. Uzbek is probably the worst, they are made to die essentially.
Kazan because Sunni, level 3 fort, gold mine and great ideas. You also have your capital in Europe which comes handy when you arrive to India.
However I would totally disagree on your choice on ideas. I tend to think economic is a bit overrated even for the -20% dev, because if you take humanist ideas early on you can expand way faster without caring about rebels or religious unity (again Kazan has a 25% free religious unity). Then I would consider Aristocratic over Quality because the damages come from mainly your cavalry and the +1 siege pip is priceless in a war monger gameplay.
Oirats defintely have the best start
Great video did learn much from this thanks.
Oirat cause you can easily from yuan
Just two points I've learned myself playing with mainly Tatar Hordes.
Trade Ideas is trash, you spend eternity upgrading it but it just does not pay back enough from the poor regions you have razed and devastated
Quality Ideas, while good with Economic for extra +5% Discipline on its own is kinda bad because it contains three pointless naval ideas that you do nothing with.
Honestly I would pick Aristrocratic over Quality any day as Horde:
You get the same Cavalry Combat Ability bonus (compared to Quality) and cavalry cost discount which directly ties to your army maintenance but also as the first idea.
Mil tech discount helps you keep up with tech if you are lagging behind due to institutions and is helpfull anyway.
You as a horde will most likely raise autonomy in provinces many times to avoid wasting manpower on shitty provinces. Lets be real your economy is not gonna do that much worse if freshly conquered territory makes you 0 ducats instead of 0,05 but your ability to fight wars can and will be hampered if you need to take down rebel stacks constantly burning your manpower away.'
+33% manpower modifier is no-brainer.
Army/Naval Tradition decay, extra diplomat/extra leader without upkeep are good.
But the real kicker and gem on top is the +1 siege since biggest roadstop on fighting quick and efficient wars are the forts so anything that helps with that, so you spend less times fighting and thus less time possibly loosing money and manpower as well, is great.
Trade is better than economic
Couple of points I'd like to add,
First of all imo, people don't really understand or value 3 stability. I get that. As a horde you almost always tend to make your ruler into a General and they tend to die more and more often than a monarchy ruler does. You lose stability a lot, and then come the events that make you lose even more stab. It just looks like you CAN'T really afford to stab up more than just the once. But it's WRONG.
I'd support my claim as such;
Basically what I am about to tell you guys are about 3 stab > Estate management > conversion Management > rebellions > economics > Directing Conquests > Losing Land on Purpose > Institutions >Gold Mines. And I intend to make a video for this, referring to this video if it's ok.
–YOU MUST CONVERT! 3 stab means +1.5 Conversion rate -3 unrest, +15% National TAX -0,6 corruption etc. all of which you need to have a decent country.
–You must conserve manpower at all costs, the most important costs here would be money and admin power. We horde players have all been to the point where we fairly decently win a hardy war, with some manpower even spared, and then come the tribe rebels. Man they are strong, as strong as you are and sometimes even stronger. As you lose for example 30k manpower in a war against a major power, after the war is over you lose almost the same amount to the rebels. THAT HURTS YOU MORE THAN YOU KNOW. It delays your capacity to declare your next wars and a HUGE DAMAGE DEALT to your economy ; "Horses being so f.ckn expensive to replenish" And above all, the damage is also dealt in the way of devastation, which goes to my next point here,
–You must have prosperity for your economy to be strong. For this, there are 2 things you must control; first is the positive stab ofc, the second is the ability to preserve your land from outside and inside aggression. You will not be able to achieve this without any forts. Build them to surround your borders AT LEAST. Even better would be to cover all your provinces with a zone of fort control. But that is if you have the risk of a rebellion ofc. Try achieving this by taking loans, building forts and declaring to a major power and playing a defensive war against them where you can take money and war reps to get rid of loans.
–Don't be afraid to take out a couple of – even up to 5 loans, but only if you can foresee that you will be able to pay them back withing 5-10 years fully. Never let inflation go higher than it needs to be. Inflation hurts a lot since you will be mostly cavalry dependent and MAN!, the cav are already expensive without even any inflation.
And always consider lowering your inflation at the cost of your admin. If you let it grow too big, you wont get out of that situation w/o a bankruptcy. Even if it comes in 50 years you will have damaged yourself greatly. Bankruptcies hurt hordes more than you can imagine.
–You must not take random land; taking random land without caring about the zone of control of your country is a disaster. Take the land, core it, then build a fort immediately. that way with the 3 stab and a little bit of micro management, if you keep going for your own culture own religion land, you wont have the trouble of a rebellion for a long long time. And if you think the heretic or heathen lands are crutial for your trade node and income or for whatever reason, annex 2 to 3 provinces each time which you make sure that you can make into a state and then convert immediately. If you are not able to accept the culture to start with, don't even bother conquering that land cuz it's more trouble than you'd think it is. Remember, Your CAV is your expenses and your, the peace deals are your income. This way without much effort, by only 50% warscore every 10 years you will get a decent amount of expansion and a VERY VERY good income. Both of which will help you focus your wars to the harder and more advantageous regions.
–As for the Advisors, always have either a theologian or a missionary; depending on your current task at hand. keep them at level 1. Military advisors are not a necessity but at times of war they can also be useful. At no circumstance pay money for a dip advisor. It would be money thrown away for no good reason.
1 ducat a month is a huge deal as a starting horde. Keep your cav at minimum if you aren't at war. And even if you are, depending on the actual amount of enemy troops, if you outflank them keep your cav at 4 regiments. with the state interaction raise banners you can easily increase your cav regiments when needed.
When conquering land,
–If its heretic or heathen, never give them to the tribes estate. It locks the land at 50% autonomy and makes conversion a lot more expensive than it needs to be. Don't increase autonomy, nor should you decrease it. You should always aim to keep the land conquered from rebelling. so, when conquering your culture group and your religion, focus more on Land than Money, if its not your religion, just take 2-3 provinces so that they wont rebel before you convert them, and take all the money you can.
–Never accept your own culture group cultures. Always go for heretic or heathen religious group's cultures so that they will be both easier to core and easier to convert.
Always try to remove high dev provinces from the tribes as soon as possible. This should be one of your first priorities. Its simple. From a 6 adm dev province of Astrakhan you get 3 ducats of income instead of 6, just because the tribes own this province. and your trade power is reduced by 25% too. Its going to help you a lot if you manage to remove them. To do this you might even consider giving them newly conquered own culture own religion 3 dev provinces. Accept army tradition loss for favor of tribal loyalty, grant them money etc.
–Your adm mana is more important then almost anything in your runs. National focus should go to adm and stay there. Make a province 30 dev as soon as possible after stabbing to 3 and military tech 4. It should be in europe so that you will develop renaissance and you might even consider devving up a province that borders a feudalism embraced province up to 20 dev, if conquest isn't yet an option.
Another thing most people don't even see as an option is losing the newly conquered heretic-heathen-non accepted culture land to rebels on purpose after razing it; just manually accept rebel demands right after razing it. Very beneficial, very easy way of monarch power generation without disturbing your nation internally. Just pick a target, Take their land, raze it, and release it immediately. Don't ever do this to your own religion / own culture though. Its so much better to just keep that land to yourself, whatever it costs.
–Gold Mines are a MUST as a horde. For you to rapidly expand you must acquire a gold mine if you don't already start with one, ASAP. Conquer it, Convert it. Build a fort on it and start building that prosperity. Don't forget to upgrade it to at least 7 production dev.
— Always better to start with a european capital horde 🙂 the conquest should, IMO go like this. consolidate a european trade node, the better ones are up south if you don't want to focus your energy in europe, such as KAZAN trade node, which you can easily collect up to 75% of the income.
go for Astrakhan> Samarkand> Lahore> Doab> and then Bengal. If you make it right, you should not be suffering the hideous modifier of too many territories before you need to. Going Persia or Siberia is a lot more problematic early game than you need to suffer through. The Crimea trade node is a joke. Owning all of the node still doesn't give you 50% trade power in the node and making Astrakhan and end node for yourself is worse than Kazan.
Great Horde and Uzbek.
Why would you develop on a mountain capital? Doesn't the mountain completely negate the fact the capital gives a reduction bonus?
Ahahaha no those first 3 idea groups are terrible. U already have a bad economy and u want to spend money on converting provinces? first idea group u should be going as a horde is humanist or administrative. These 2 will help your economy a lot more than the actual economic idea group. Also why take quality so early? No way are u gonna afford using artillery or ships and no discount to army costs. Aristocratic, offensive, defensive or quantity is the better early game military ideas for a horde. Offensive may not have discounts but still helps your economy because you spend less time sieging and win wars quicker so that u can restructure your loans faster.
kazan in 1.28
I love your videos man and I really looking foward to them. I hope it is ok for opinions on on the channel, no harm intended on the last vid. Just wanted to say something without to "record the the lets play" as a subscriber.
Play zarazophia
In my opinion, great horde is one of the best to start, because it is sunni so it has acess to the convert mechanic on trade companies and it also has the capital on europe and can create trade companies
I think any of the Manchu boards are best options for banners!
Best horde in 1444? Obviously Sarig Yogir
Dont you wanna do run as great horde? Musocovy twbds to be quite a challenging foe
Oirat because of the new patch is babby easy and great for newbies.